Mandatory Training for CCW

There was recently a discussion on THR about a newspaper article that talked about how shocking it was that CCW training in Florida was too easy.  Of course, this kicked off into the inevitable argument amongst gun folks about how we have to have mandatory training vs. people who don’t believe in mandatory training. 

 

I know a little bit about this subject, and I’m against any MANDATORY training for a permit.  I’m a huge fan of training, but only if you want to do it.  I’m in favor of Alaska style CCW, where you don’t even need a permit, you feel like carrying a gun, carry a gun.

 

A little background.  I am a CCW instructor.  In fact, as far as I’m aware, I’m the busiest instructor in Utah.  I average 100-150 students per month.  I certified just over 1,000 people last year, and that was with taking a couple of months off.  Basically, I think that about 2% of the people carrying guns in this state were signed off on by me.  So I’ve got a teensy bit of experience on this subject.

 

Utah doesn’t require a shooting portion.  I think that’s a good thing, and here’s why.

 

When I first started out, I did a full on basic handgun class in addition to the lecture portion that was required by the state.  What I quickly discovered was the people who were going to be smart, were smart.  People that were going to be stupid, were on their best behavior while I watched them, then immediately went back to being stupid when they were on their own.

 

Shooting is a skill that can be taught.  People that want to learn, are going to learn.  People with giant egos assume that what they know is good enough, and you can’t teach them anything anyway. 

 

But more distressing was the fact that shooting accurately means very little in the grand scheme of things.  Don’t get me wrong, being able to hit your target is important, but it pales in comparison to the importance of making good decisions.   I can teach a monkey to shoot a piece of paper. Teaching you to react intelligently under stress is a whole lot harder.

 

The big problem?  What I saw was serious lack of knowledge on the law or how violence worked.  I saw this over and over again amongst people that already had their permits too, because they had gone through some cheesy instructor’s wimpy course. The minimum Utah course requires a bunch of extraneous stuff that is best learned on your own, or from your owner’s manual, but there is almost nothing in there about use of force, when you can shoot, why you should shoot, and absolutely nothing at all about tactics.  There’s no info about what to do after the shooting, nada. 

 

I also discovered that a bunch of so called experts knew how to punch paper on the range, but knew jack squat about how violent encounters actually unfolded.   Instructors like that love big qualifiers, because they can check off of a list, and feel like they’re accomplishing something.  Two shots, five yards.  Check.

Plus, if anything, a basic qualifier gives you a false sense of security.  I get this all the time when working with law enforcement.  “I passed my shooting qual in POST!  I already know how to shoot good!”  Snort.  They don’t realize that the qualifier they shot was an easy test, usually designed for the lowest common denominator to pass.  

 

So I changed my class.  If a student wants to learn to shoot better, they can come with me another time and learn to shoot.  But I now spend the majority of my class time going over use of force, decision making, and the stuff that keeps you A. alive and B. out of jail. 

 

As far as I know, I’m the only Utah instructor that uses a role playing session.   I do it to challenge the student’s preconceived notions of how “their gunfight” is going to unfold.  (usually it is some variant of them being John McClane).  I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve had somebody who’s already been through CCW classes come up to me afterward and comment about how eye opening that was.

 

Super in-depth qualifiers assuage the conscience of bureaucrats, and that’s about it.  The article in question points out that police have lousy hit ratios.  Well, that’s because gunfights are HARD, and also, most of the cops with the lousy hit rate’s training is basically the same type of BS qualifiers that the bureaucrats want to force on CCW holders. 

 

The vast majority of the time, just producing the gun solves the problem for the permit holder, or the violent encounter is so close that you can just jam the muzzle into the bad guy’s chest.  So why exactly should we put some extra hoops for the permit holder to jump through, that don’t really matter, don’t really help, and just cause one more expense to getting the permit to begin with?

 

And if you’ve already got the law written so that it requires a shooting portion, what is to keep some future anti-gun bureaucrat from tweaking it so that the test is so difficult that nobody can pass it?  And even if it is only as difficult as the qual for say, the Air Marshals, and you personally are a bad-ass gunslinger killer of cardboard, do you want to force that requirement on your mom or your grandma?   Sorry, Mom, you don’t get to carry a gun to use at conversational distance against a rapist, because I don’t FEEL safe knowing you can’t shoot the Seal Team Six pistol qual. 

 

That’s basically what this fixation on mandatory training comes down to.  Feelings.  We’ve got some people on our side that are no different that the anti-gunners who want to ban everything because it makes the FEEL unsafe.  Well, they only want to bar admittance to their secret-club to anybody who isn’t quite as good as they are, because they FEEL that’s unsafe. 

 

Okay, regardless of your feelings, show me the numbers.  If mandatory training makes a huge difference in safety, how come Alaska and Vermont, with no training, are about the same as Utah with 4 hours, or states like Arizona with a mandatory (If I recall correctly) 16+ hours of training?

 

Also note, that the people who are in favor of more training and tougher tests, don’t want to set the bar so high that they can’t personally reach it.  They would much rather set the bar just below what they can do, because obviously, that’s how proficient you should be.  Anybody who can’t shoot as good as they can is obviously a menace to society. 

 

The next time somebody tells me some nonsense like that, I’ll tell them sure, only I think you should shoot at least as good as me, and odds are that since I’m a fanatic, and I can easily outshoot you, no permit for you.  On the new mandatory Correia Test, the permit holder has to be able to shoot at least Expert on an IDPA classifier, while wearing a backpack loaded with eighty pounds of cinderblocks, while teenagers pelt you with rotting fruit, and listening to Barry Manilow records… BACKWARDS!   I figure that will take it down from 115,000 CCWs to where there are only about fifty or so people carrying guns in Utah.  That should keep the riff-raff out.   Because you know, then I would feel safe.

 

Nope, no mandatory training at all.  Zip, nada.  In fact, I’ve already volunteered to testify before the state legislature as a subject matter expert should the issue of Alaska/Vermont style carry make it out of committee again.   I’ll take the pay cut in exchange for freedom. 

 

17 Responses

  1. Just FYI incase it comes up in the future… Arizona has an 8-hour minumum class time.

    http://www.azdps.gov/ccw/procedures/obtainPermit.asp

    Not that this means anything for your point. It is well made regardless.

    Carry on.

    -T.

  2. Very well put…but also comically true. Its been a while since I’ve laughed so hard. In all seriousness, I took a ccw course from an instructor who wanted us all to qualify at 21 feet with 25 shots on a 100 yard rifle target. It really felt like a waste of our time that could have been spent going deeper into the subject. Great article post. This ones going in my file of top 100 discussion on concealed carry. Well Done!!!

  3. I wish you didn’t live on the other side of the country! I would dearly love to take one of your courses. How did you acquire all of this knowledge?

  4. Texas has similar training to what you give, with an easy range qualifier. However, the inane part of the range qualifier is if you test with a revolver, you can only conceal a revolver. If you qualify with a semi-auto pistol you can carry either a semi-auto or a revolver.
    I would rather have no range qualifier and an online or classroom test on what is supposed to be covered in the class. The classroom requirement makes it extremely difficult for those who have jobs with odd hours/days. It also adds an additional expense to a high cost license (with classroom and other fees you are looking at a minimum of $200).

  5. Alex, I was just lucky enough to get to work with some really talented instructors, and shamelessly steal as much of their stuff as possible. :)

  6. In my dream CCW course, 80% of the class time would be going over the state laws for use of force and role playing, with the last 20% being at the range so everyone can get a chance to shoot once with an instructor, so questions can be answered. Such a class would also advertise advanced courses for those that want to learn more, or ranges that have targets other than paper.

    I think for the average person, knowing when and why you can use deadly force is so much more important than being able to keep a 6″ group at 15 yards.

  7. I absolutely believe in mandatory training. And i truly mean mandatory.

    I believe it should start in pre-school and kindergarten with an “Eddie Eagle” style curriculum. Advance to basic gun safety, then more advanced gun safety, operation of various types of firearms, hunger safety and marksmanship training through Junior High School (or middle school, or whatever they call it these days). Ethics and legalities of CCW (state-specific of course), psychology and ramifications of lethal use of force, more marksmanship (with sanctioned intramural teams for bullseye, high powered rifle, practical, sporting clays, and any other disciplines that I’ve not thought of) all requirements for a high school diploma and funded through the normal educational process.

    That kind of mandatory training i could definitely get behind. No exemptions, no exceptions and it would satisfy all legal requirements for permits/FOID/purchase qualification for any state in the union.

  8. hunger safety

    That little typo made me chuckle at myself.

    I, of course, meant “hunter safety”…

  9. For the record, Larry’s “decision class”, with the simulator, was one of the more amazing things I’ve ever gone through, in terms of opening my eyes.

    Boy, things happen fast, and getting a pistol out of a holster is hard. Even when you know it’s fake, the adrenaline gets up. Or, heck, maybe I’m just excitable.

    As for the “where to set the training level” thing, it’s just like driving. Everyone else on the road is either a maniac for driving faster than you, or a moron for driving slower…

  10. Most accuracy training is a joke anyway. In Missouri, the requirement is for 20 shots at a standard silhouette target 7 yards away. 15 of them have to be in the black, and that’s after 50 shots of “practice.” Doesn’t matter if the hit is in the X ring or in the shoulder.

    I could take somebody who has never held a gun before and have them meet the 15-out-of-20 standard with a .44 magnum revolver loaded with full power rounds. Piece of cake.

    If you’re going to carry a gun, you need to be interested in practice, but the bar is usually set so low it is pointless. I would love to have taken my CCW class from you, Larry, since the one I did take was so-so at best (I’ve progressed and learned on my own). The role playing part sounds like it would be quite useful.

  11. My license class was just as you wished, but with a practical thrown in. Law, law, anger management, how normal situations can erupt into quick violence rapidly, conflict resolution, the whole nine yards. It was 8 of our 10 hours together that day

    The shooting portion was to make sure you understood the manual of arms of your particular firearm, and that you were at least minimally competent. Enough to defend yourself and not hurt anyone around you.

    As a caveat, we were trained by the 1st certified instructor in Texas when the CCL law passed. A man intimately involved with the politics of the state and the battle that it took to make our class possible. And what it will take to preserve and expand it.

    MC

  12. Arizona’s 8 hours is a joke. We spent a decent amount of classroom time, but an inordinate amount of time on the range. I watched 3 individuals (out of a class of about 24) get booted off the range for muzzling everyone in sight with loaded and cocked weapons, one pair that shared a semi that they had to bang on the back of to get it to chamber and one guy that shot the test 4 times (7 of 10 shots into a standard upper body (anywhere on the black) at 7 yards) and still fail. The instructor went ahead and passed him. For about half the class the shooting portion was the first time they had picked up a sidearm in their life, and all but the 3 gun wavers are licensed to carry today.

    I relate that class to giving drivers licenses to kids that can’t drive the car, don’t even know where the brakes are, but just managed to point it in the right direction out of the parking lot.

  13. You make an exceptionally compelling argument. I’ve always been somewhat in the mandatory training camp, but it occurs to me that you definitely do have a point. Aside from the legal vulnerabilities (which, I’m embarrassed to say, had never occurred to me before), perhaps the people who will benefit from mandatory training the most are those that would have been smart enough to get themselves trained anyway.

  14. Larry,
    In about three years I’ll be fleeing CA and moving to your part of the country. If you’re still teaching I would love to take your class.
    Okay, that bit of “suck-up” was just so I could say this:

    Sailorcurt,
    “Hunger safety” is avoiding being between my teenage son and the refrigerator during a commercial.

    Sorry.

  15. You could not be more right with this post. Here in UK, the so-called “shooting community” has been the worst possible enemy of gun rights, from the UK NRA on down.

    If I may quote myself here…

    “But the very group of people who should have been shouting loudest about RKBA in this country have been the most acquiescent to the continual increase in State powers. In fact, the pleasure the typical FAC holder (what you might term “licensed gun owner”) takes in being a member of the government-sanctioned elite is one of the most obnoxious things I’ve ever come across in other people and the only demerit I’ve found about shooting as a sport.”
    http://dvc.org.uk/dunblane/readme.html

    Bitter, cos I have no guns to cling to.

  16. “However, the inane part of the range qualifier is if you test with a revolver, you can only conceal a revolver. If you qualify with a semi-auto pistol you can carry either a semi-auto or a revolver.”

    That’s especially inane since, in my experience, it’s much harder to shoot a double action revolver accurately than a semi-auto. Most people, and I would be one of those, get thrown by that long, hard trigger pull.

    In Virginia, the common method used to get a CHP is to take an NRA sanctioned safety class. In the class that I help teach, we turn it into a First Steps class, with a lot of time spent on state law regarding firearms and use of deadly force. Since an NRA class requires the students to shoot, we limit it to something simple. We just have them load the firearm, shoot at the backside of a target, and unload it. We just want to see that they can be safe, not that they are crack shots, though the guy that put in 1″ group with his Desert Eagle the other day did impress the hell out of me.

    I’m not a fan of mandatory classes to get a CHP. But it at least doesn’t bother me as much in Virginia since there is no permit required to open carry here.

  17. My class was fantastic. The owner of the local range was told that since he nor his staff are attorneys that he couldn’t answer legal questions. He would have to refer them to the book. So he asked what if he hired an attorney. The powers that be agreed and now 4 hours of the Oklahoma Carry Conceal class is taught by an attorney who tells about all the legal ramifications and how the situation should go down. He even goes so far as to tell you exactly how to behave at a traffic stop since you need to inform the officer when you are carrying. In our class we even talked about what castle doctrine means. We talked about the psychological ramifications of using deadly force even when you are completely justified in using it. The next half of my class was taught by a retired police officer from Brooklyn. He talked about shoot/don’t shoot scenarios. Finally we all went to the range with our fifty rounds of ammunition and proved we could put it down range and not into our neighbor

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